Karl Fogel makes a great counter to Mark Helprin’s May 20th Op-end piece A Great Idea Lives Forever. Shouldn’t Its Copyright?
However, I picked Karl up on his point here:
“The idea that owning creative works is somehow a natural right thus founders on the rocks of physical reality”.
Here follows our conversation:
Don’t mistake copyright for IP
Submitted by Crosbie Fitch on Mon, 2007-06-04 10:22
Owning the works one creates is a natural right, and it does not founder on the rocks – only copyright does.
There is a natural right to intellectual property. It is this natural right that has been abused to serve as the illegitimate foundation for copyright.
This is how the abuse goes:
“Nothing is more a man’s property than the product of his mind”: Yes. Absolutely. 100% agree.
“Therefore, unlike any other craftsman, the author should enjoy the ability to stipulate how their works may or may not be used by those who purchase them, and to prevent anyone else subsequently reproducing them”: Eh? Where the heck did this illogical claptrap appear from?
Beware of dissolving intellectual property in your laudable questioning of copyright. The property bit is fine, it’s the copyright that’s claptrap.
The problem with copyright is that it unethically grants the author of creative works a commercial privilege to control use of their property even after they have sold it, i.e. they obtain control over someone else’s intellectual property.
Ditto for patents.
Re: Don’t mistake copyright for IP
Submitted by kfogel on Mon, 2007-06-04 17:20.
Sorry, but I completely disagree.
After all, what does “property” mean? Why do we have the concept in the first place? We have it because we must make decisions about the allocation and use of limited resources. But when the resource is not limited — when it can be infinitely replicated at virtually no cost — then treating it as property doesn’t make sense; it isn’t useful for society. That’s the premise on which this entire website is based.
I didn’t understand this part:
The problem with copyright is that it unethically grants the author of creative works a commercial privilege to control use of their property even after they have sold it, i.e. they obtain control over someone else’s intellectual property.
What do you mean by “after they have sold it”? What exactly are they selling? When I sell you a sandwich, you actually take a physical object from me in exchange for the money. When I sell you a trademark, you take (and I lose) an exclusive privilege to use certain symbols and phrases in certain contexts. But in the transaction you’re describing above, I can’t tell what is being sold, if not the copyright… In today’s system, when someone sells their copyright, they don’t retain control of the use of the “property” after selling that copyright. Instead, the purchaser now has control.
So, you lost me there… :-)
Reproducibility does not destroy property
Submitted by Crosbie Fitch on Mon, 2007-06-04 18:38.
The fact that we can copy at insignificant expense does not prevent ideas or intellectual works from being property.
Simply because you could make a copy for ‘no cost’, doesn’t destroy the property rights of the person who owns that which you’d copy.
If you want a copy of some of my intellectual property, perhaps a published recording I have of a singer we both admire, then irrespective of whether you can make a copy of it at no cost, it remains my property and I, and only I, will decide if you can make a copy (or that I make one and supply it to you). I may well ask for $10 for such a copy. Alternatively, I may give you a copy as a gift, but the fact remains that it is entirely my right to determine what use is made of my property.
Of course, once I’ve sold or given this copy to you, it becomes your intellectual property. Similarly, the copy I still posssess remains undauntedly, my intellectual property.
As you know, copyright interposes, suspends our natural property rights (as an incentive to the author) and stipulates that all these copies must be made with the permission of the copyright holder.
Admittedly some people corrupt “intellectual property privileges” into “transferable intellectual property rights” and then contract that into “intellectual property”.
Furthermore, the fact that copyright is transferable can mislead people into thinking that copyright is the intellectual property, but this is a wicked conflation intended to persuade people that copyrighted intellectual works belong to the copyright holder rather than the purchaser.
You buy an authorised copy, you own the copy – but copyright says you can’t copy it yourself without permission.
You buy an intellectual work, you own the intellectual work – it is your intellectual property. But copyright says you don’t necessarily enjoy (ALL OF) your rights to this intellectual property. (SOME OF) your property rights are suspended and to be enjoyed by the copyright holder instead.
But for copyright, as the owner of the intellectual work, you’d enjoy all of your intellectual property rights – none of them would be suspended to be granted (for limited times) to the author.
So, the abolition of the privilege of copyright actually results in the restoration of everyone’s intellectual property rights.
That IP maximalists overreach through copyright and patent and subsume those commercial privileges into the definition of IP does not invalidate IP. We just have to remind people that IP loses that corruption when copyright and patent are abolished.
If you like my basket I’ll weave you a copy for a dozen eggs and it’s yours.
If you like my software I’ll make you a copy of the source code for a chicken and it’s yours.
Whatever it is, physical or intellectual, until you pay for it, it remains my property. And when you’ve bought it, it’s truly your property, without let or hindrance.
Re: Reproducibility does not destroy property
Submitted by kfogel on Tue, 2007-06-05 13:12.
Hmm. I think I see what you’re saying: that in order for me to copy something from you (or, in the digital age, duplicate a bitstring), you need to make the data available in the first place. But “property” seems like the wrong word to use for this; “access” or “display” might be better.
I must admit, I also don’t see the relevance of this to anything under discussion here. I mean, sure, for person B to copy something from person A, person A must grant access. But weaving a basket is totally different from making a copy of a bitstring: one requires time and effort, the other is essentially zero cost.
You can use the word “property” to describe all these things, if you want, but it’s just going to result in a lot of misunderstanding, since most people will assume that all the other connotations of “property” apply.
A gift of property may be easy, but ease doesn’t invalidate sale
Submitted by Crosbie Fitch on Tue, 2007-06-05 15:01.
You don’t copy my intellectual property. It’s not yours to copy.
Instead, you ask me to make a copy of my intellectual property and give it to you.
I can automate this such that when you make a request to one of my agents (publishers or webservers) that they make a copy on my behalf, and supply it to you free of charge.
I can also offer copies of my IP for sale.
Just because it’s easy for me to make copies of my property, that doesn’t mean the copies aren’t valuable, nor does it entitle you to appropriate copies of my property without my permission. Indeed, the more keen you are to obtain one of my ‘trivially produced’ copies, the more valuable it is to you (and me), and the more I’ll be interested in realising this value and offering it for sale.
The critical thing to note is that once I’ve given or sold you a copy of my IP, it’s then your IP. Without copyright, I cannot stop you making copies or derivatives of your IP – irrespective of the fact that I authored it.
Relevance?
You say “Treating works of the mind as physical property fails at a basic logical level”. I’m saying that, on the contrary, treating works of the mind as if physical property succeeds at a basic logical level. The only thing that prevents this treatment of intellectual works as property is copyright.
People understand property. It is copyright that people are evidently having a problem with. “Wot? You mean I can’t copy this CD so I can play it in my car? EMI still own it? Flip that, sunshine. I bought it. They can sue me!”
I am evangelising the abolition of copyright so that everyone’s intellectual property rights are restored from notional suspension by copyright and other unethical privileges governing IP.
It’s your CD. It’s your intellectual property, and no-one else can stop you copying it, playing it, mixing it, or being inspired by it.
Thank goodness the pornography industry got here before the software industry (the attendant disrepute might help kill the ever increasing recognition of clickthru EULAs as consensual contracts).
Here’s the latest wretched revenue mechanism for persuading punters to pay for the porn proactively published to them:
Both ‘agree’ to a EULA/‘clickthru contract’ to exchange money for porn, secured by, wait for it:
Surrender of the punter’s PC to the vendor, primarily its operational effectiveness, but also its resources as a node in a pornographic file sharing system.
See MBS Porn Billing
So, what lesson must the law relearn?
Contracts cannot be entered into ‘on approval’ by dint of inaction or ignorance. Both parties must actively demonstrate voluntary, deliberate and special expenditure of effort to make and consummate any contract – in order for the contract to be binding.
As I’ve said before, art worth paying for is art the audience wants to pay for. So you don’t need to trick or con the audience into paying, nor hold their PCs or privacy hostage until they do. This applies to porn as much as any art…
Porn worth paying for is porn the punter wants to pay for.